I år arrangerte Human-Etisk forbund sitt andre år med Øverland-foredraget. Denne gangen ble aktivisten og filmskaperen Deeyah Khan invitert til diskusjon om hvordan vi best snakker med personer med ekstreme meninger. I regi av PRESSET. tok jeg en prat med henne i etterkant av foredraget.

Khan har skapt overskrifter med arbeidet sitt. Foto: Pavel Storozhuk / Human-Etisk Forbund. Kollage: Fanny Overgaard / PRESSET.

“The journalistic practice is that you have to be completely neutral and objective. An activist is not objective. They’re completely involved. So the reason I kind of step aside from the journalist hat, is because activism and journalism doesn’t necessarily go hand in hand. For me personally, activism is more natural and comfortable.”

— Deeyah Khan

Khan snakker med folk på en måte som gjør at de tør å åpne seg, og jeg er mildt sagt nysgjerrig.

Vi setter oss på bakrommet etter foredraget for å ta en prat. Rommet med mørkegrønne, lune vegger, moderne møbler og Deeyahs manager som sitter bak oss i en sofa setter stemningen. Det er vanskelig å ikke føle på Deeyahs energi, og jeg forstår raskt hvorfor mange føler seg trygge i dette nærværet. Med dét fyrer jeg løs…

You’ve obviously had a long experience interviewing people. What is an important aspect about interviewing that you’ve learned after all these years in the field?

- In my personal experience I would say that interviewing is like a conversation. Many of the people I talk to aren’t used to being interviewed, so it’s very important to make them feel comfortable. They shouldn’t have to feel that it is a performance, or that they’re expected to be at their best. It’s okay if they stumble or make mistakes, Khan says.

Do you prepare notes and questions beforehand, or do you wing it?

- After a while I noticed that I would forget to look at my notes. I would be so interested in the person I talked to, so I based the questions on what naturally came up during the conversation. It has become a part of how I do it now. It’s not necessarily good advice, but that’s how I like to do it! I’ll of course do research beforehand so I know a lot about the person.

Maybe that way of interviewing comes with experience as well?

- Yes. I would also say it comes with the lack of experience too. Because I’m actually not a trained journalist. I’ve got the curiosity on my side, and it dictates how and what kind of questions I ask. Sometimes I'll ask completely inappropriate things as well. And sometimes that's on purpose, just to see if it like loosens up the person.

Has there been instances where you felt you overstepped, and it shut down the person?

- Sometimes I might say something that I think is perfectly fine and respectful, but I can see the person tensing up or becoming a little closed off. In those cases, I try to make it okay again, because getting access is hard. And keeping that access is even harder. It’s a trust that has to be built, cause these people often share really vulnerable things. I want them to show me their true self, and that takes a lot of care, trust, and a lot of gentleness sometimes. Other times I try to test the waters to see how it sits.

So how do you get that trust if you don't know the person? If you’ve just met them, and have to ask them all these personal questions?

- You have to give both yourself and the interviewee time. And that’s my luxury. Sometimes they aren’t ready to speak on camera right away, so we’ll go and eat together or have a coffee and get to know each other. I make it clear what my intentions are; I will not misrepresent them, even if I hate what they say to me.

Have you had questions that you withheld asking, because you thought they were too controversial?

- No, because otherwise I haven’t done what I went there to do. The key is how I ask, and not necessarily to keep any questions off the table. The tone and way you ask the question is the key to whether someone can take the question in or not. With having done it so much I can see it more clearly now. You just get used to people and how they are, and then you kind of adjust according to that.

Øverland-foredraget holdes i samfunssalen i år. Foto: Fanny Overgaard / PRESSET.

Mitt første møte med Deeyah Khan

For fem år siden så jeg filmen White right: Meeting The Enemy der Khan følger nynazister i arbeidet deres for et hvitere Amerika. Det var en oppsiktsvekkende dokumentar fordi Khan fanger noe vi sjelden ser på kamera: Mennesker med to vidt forskjellige meninger som etterhvert enes og skaper endring. Khan bruker utallige timer med mennene og ser medmennesket i dem, selv om hun hater det de står for. Det viser seg å gjøre noe med nynazistene som etterhvert også ser medmennesket i henne.

På slutten av dokumentaren spør Deeyah en av mennene om han fortsatt føler det samme hatet for henne. Spørsmålet gjør tydelig noe med han, fordi det går en stund før han klarer å svare. Til slutt finner han ordene og sier at han selvfølgelig ikke hater henne. Hun var jo vennen hans nå.

“They [from Meeting The Enemy] were amazing, in the sense that the whole meeting was completely unexpected. I didn’t expect that I would get along with them, or even like them, or for them to like me. Or for us to even become friends. ”

— Deeyah Khan

Andre året med Øverland-foredraget

Øverland-foredraget skal feires hvert år fra 2023-2033. 2033 markerer hundreårsjubileumet da Arnulf Øverland hadde et foredrag om kristendommen som han kalte den tredje landeplage. I etterkant ble foredraget beskrevet å være til offentlig forargelse. Nettopp dette begrepet bruker Human-Etisk forbund som tema for å hylle Øverland i årene fremover. Tematikken i foredragene skal skape offentlig forargelse og sette lys på det følelsesladde, det vanskelige og det vi ikke tør å ta på.

Det er full sal i dag, fordi nysgjerrigheten over Khans arbeid er stor. Hun snakker nemlig med mennesker vi tenker er fylt av hat og som vi ikke vil forholde oss til. Hun møter dem med nysgjerrighet, snarere enn med sinne, som i de fleste tilfeller setter et hinder for en åpen dialog. Manageren hennes beskriver henne slik under intervjuet vårt:

- It’s very special the way that Deeyah meets people, because they immediately feel that connection with her. When you sit and look her in the eyes, she's here. It does something with people.

*Can you tell me a bit about why you use filming as a tool in your work?*
- Yes, it's my instrument in a way, which allows me the freedom and creativity to grapple with some of the questions that I have. It also helps me put up a mirror to society, even if we don’t want to look at it.

Khan forteller

Do you have any encounters that still sits with you today?

- There's been several. But what comes to mind is from my very first film. It was about a young, Kurdish Iraqi woman, Banaz Mahmod, who was killed by her family because she left a very abusive marriage, and then fell in love with somebody else. Her community found out and decided that she had to die for it. In the process she'd also gone to the police five times, and she wasn't believed, which is a part of the reason she ended up dead. After she died, this policewoman got the case for investigation. I was originally going to tell the story of multiple women in that film, but I ended up focusing on this one girl's death and it was because of this very first interview I did with this female police investigator.

Her name was Caroline Goode. Her first time on camera she gave me a very stiff, very police like, kind of interview. When I finished up and turned off the camera, she suddenly asks me if I know what an extradition is, and starts explaining... The killers of the woman had fled to Iraq, which makes it quite difficult to bring them back. If they’re gone, they’re gone. However, Goode managed to get the order, which had not happened in the UK before. She went over there, pulled them out and brought them on trial. They are still in prison today. When everyone had failed this girl’s life, Caroline Goode fought for her. And this became an example case, just because of her work.

So, as I was saying, we were finishing up and Goode was about to leave. I had a last burning thought: why did she fight so hard for Banaz? I mean, even her parents didn't push the police for an investigation. They wanted her dead anyway. So why did this policewoman care so much?

**Goode stopped and said: ”Because I love her.”**
**I just went: ”What did you say?”**
**”Because I love her.”**
**”How can you love someone you've never met, someone you don't even know?”**
**”She deserved to have been believed. She deserved to have been cared for by somebody. And the people that should have cared about her didn't. So I did and I still do”**

- I still get goosebumps thinking about it, Khan says while showing me her arm.

- That made the biggest impact on me in many ways, because it was the beginning of me making films. It's also what led to me doing what I do today. It showed me what it takes to do a good job, we really have to care about what we do and the people who’s stories we tell.

When was this?

- The film came out in 2013, and I chose to call it A love story; It was a story about love. Caroline Goode’s love for Banaz, the love that lead to the killing of Banaz, just because she was in love, and then that we all made the film out of love for Banaz. We didn't have any money or a TV channel or anything like that. We all did it just because we started feeling love for this girl too. So that was really meaningful.

- Other important encounters are some of the ones I mentioned today on the stage, the encounters with some of the Nazis (from the documentary ”Meeting the enemy”). They were amazing, in the sense that the whole meeting was completely unexpected. I didn’t expect that I would get along with them, or even like them, or for them to like me. Or for us to even become friends. Jeff, the first guy I talk to in the documentary, is the one that decided to leave the group. I didn't expect it at all. I would never have thought that that was possible, to be honest.

The same happened in the film Jihad.

How many from the Jihad movie decided to leave the group, I ask Khan.

- Well, some of them had already left, but the main boss guy there, Abu Muntasir, had never admitted or talked about any of this stuff publicly. He was known for being this tough warrior. In fact, he told me things that maybe he shouldn't have told me. He told me too much, actually. I remember saying…

”You're telling me too much.”
”It's okay, I don't care, I trust you,” he replied.

”You know, I could use it against you and make you look really, really bad.”

He's like ”I don't care, I just needed to say this, cause I've been carrying it for so long.”

You said he broke down at this point in the conversation. What made him open up like this?

- He was telling me about the horrible things he did in the past, and that he was a changed person now. I asked him if he thought he should be forgiven, in which he answered yes. Then I asked if he forgave himself. That’s when he started bawling. He just cried and cried and cried, without answering my question. The film ends there.

Wow... How is he doing today? Are you still in contact?

- Now he speaks everywhere, with young Muslim kids. He is amazing, really. Him and I are like lifelong friends now.

You really make a difference in the way you work. Do you think people in the field of journalism should follow your example of work? Or do you think there could be improvement in that field?

- I don’t think people should follow my example. They should follow what feels best for them and their process.

- But I must say that I take more time with my interviewees, even if it's on my own time. I’ve never, ever gone: ”It's five o'clock, stop filming, I'm going home.” I stop when the person is done and it doesn’t matter if it’s in the middle of the night, and if I’m exhausted. I will continue filming whether I have the money or not, and most filmmakers don't do that. They're on a budget. I mean, I'm on a budget, too, but I don't care. I will spend the amount of time that it takes to make the film I want to make. So can I expect that from journalists too? Again, people are on their own paths. So I can just talk about what works for me.

Samfunnssalen. Foto: Fanny Overgaard / PRESSET.

What's your next ideal endeavour? What type of people would you like to talk to next?

- One of the films I'm doing at the moment is about American veterans from all the post 911 wars. All of the films that I've done earlier deals with violence of different kinds, whether it's private-, public- or terrorist violence. The similarity here is that these kind of violences are all unacceptable in society, whereas war is considered acceptable. So I want to look at the people that participate in acceptable forms of violence. What does that do to them?

Interesting.

- But, you know, there's so many people I would like to talk to. It doesn't stop here!

Deeyah Khan: I tale med ekstremister